A Conversation with Sear

Conversation between Moulton and Sear (Lucia) from Graham and Parks School on Collective Decision Making, Voting Paradoxes, Civil Rights, Methods of Reasoning, Argumentation, and Persuasion.

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  Last online news update: Fri Feb 19 08:30:00 EDT 1993  MUSE version 1.7b3

You collect 250 credits.
Last login: Fri Nov 19 16:43:14 1993
You have 8 messages.
Common Room(#121RJ)
A homey little house, perfect for chatting or whatever you want to do 
here...although there are no aparent colors, you sense blue all around.
Pile of Pillows
Obvious exits:
Sear's Room  Rhion's Room  Out  
Name              Alias             Flg     On For  Idle  Talent
Moulton           Barry                      00:00    0s  Muse Lore
Sear              S                          00:33    9m  Arguing
RemoteLink        rlink               Nn  1d 01:04   34m  Linking
Total Users: 3.

Sear has arrived.

Moulton looks at Sear...

A short, dark haired woman with bright blue eyes that seem to know something you don't. She stifles a giggle when she notices you watching her so intently.
Gift for Sear
Tube of Super Glue
Farm Zone

Sear has come home after a long day to relax and take a break.

Sear says "hello"

Moulton says "Chezmoto is frozen."

Sear says "You couldn't get onto Micro?"

Sear says "It's working fine for me"

Moulton recalls his pages...

Sear pages: Heya :) Page me when you unidle. that voting stuff sounds interesting. What do you think of the Cambridge system for voting for city councilors?

Moulton pages Sear with "Hi.".

Sear pages: How're you?

Moulton pages Sear with "Hi. I'm OK. I dunno what the Cambridge system is, Sear.".

Sear pages: It's really weird. Everyone gets to vote for as many people as they want. Well, you put them in order, actually. to get a position a person has to get a certain number of votes. so first they check everyone's first choice, and if someone has enough votes they recycle the ballots of the people who voted for them whose vote they didn't need, and their second choice gets counted. I think each round they eliminate the person with the fewest votes, as well. Eventually everyone's vote ends up counting for someone, even if it wasn't their first choice, or even someone they wanted at all. And supposedly it's supposed to get everyone what they want.

Moulton pages Sear with "It sounds complex, but who do they decide whose ballots to recycle, cuz they wouldn't all have the same sub-list after striking off the first-choice winner.".

Sear pages: They recycle all the ones with the already-voted-in first choice once they have enough. Like if they get a thousand, assuming that the #, then whenever they get anymore they just recycle those.

Moulton pages Sear with "But Arrow proved rigorously that all voting systems are inherently fatally flawed. Back in 1785, the Marquis de Condorcet turned up the first and most famous Voting Paradox that illustrates the typical flaw.".

Sear pages: How'd he prove it? Or is this going to take months to explain?

Moulton pages Sear with "Suppose 2000 ppl vote Mr. Apple as 1st choice. Of these, 1000 vote Mr. Bacon as 2nd and Mr. Chive as 3rd. The other 1000 vote Mr. Chive as 2nd and Mr. Bacon as 3rd. Say you only need 800 votes to get elected. So Mr. Apple is definitely in. Now there are 1200 ballots left. Depending on *which* 800 you discard and which 1200 you recycle, you can get *either* Bacon or Chive as the declared runner up. It's a paradox.".

Moulton pages Sear with "It was a Ph.D. thesis of Arrow's. It fills a book. I even have a book with a summary of his proof, plus related work of others in the field.".

Sear pages: Not a paradox, really, just something that doesn't work out quite right. but if it's really random it *should* end up about equal, so it will really be an accurate sample of how people voted. Plus there's all the people who voted for either Mr. Chive or Mr. Bacon for first place. They each get their votes from the first round added to the ones from the second round, so it's not totally dependdent on the second round people.

Moulton pages Sear with "What Arrow showed was that the outcome would be random, depending on the order in which the votes were counted. Actually, Condorcet showed that in 1785.".

Moulton pages Sear with "Suppose There are 3 candidates, Apple, Bacon, and Chive, and one vacant seat to fill. 1000 ppl write their ballots: Apple 1st, Bacon 2nd, Chive 3rd. Another 1000 ppl write their ballots: Bacon 1st, Chive 2nd, and Apple 3rd. And the last 1000 voters write their ballots: Chive 1st, Apple 2nd, and Bacon 3rd. Now see what happens...".

Moulton pages Sear with "2000 out of 3000 prefer Apple over Bacon. 2000 of 3000 prefer Bacon over Chive. And 2000 of 3000 prefer Chive over Apple!".

Moulton says "It's an astounding paradox."

Sear says "Oops :) That wouldn't come out too well."

Sear says "So then what's the point of voting at all, if no system works?"

Moulton says "And Arrow showed that all conceivable voting systems are subject to similar paradoxes. There is no way out of it."

Moulton says "That is the fundamental dilemma of Social Choice Theory."

Sear says "So what'd he suggest people do instead of vote? have a dictator?"

Moulton says "Nope. Definitely not. :)"

Moulton says "In fact, he ruled that out as an unacceptable alternative."

Moulton says "Ever hear of Consensus Decision Making?"

Sear says "What did he think people should, then? oh..yeah"

Sear says "What if people won't agree, though?"

Moulton says "In Consensus Decision Making, the challenge is to Discover something beneficial that all can agree on."

Sear says "The problem is that often people won't agree to anything but what they think is right. And they won't listen to anyone else."

Moulton says "So you don't vote on stuff. Instead you exchange ideas until somebody discovers an idea that everyone thinks is a good idea."

Moulton says "If it were the case that nothing passed unless everyone agreed, then ppl would have to learn to work cooperatively and to be sensitive to the needs of others."

Sear says "I don't think that would work with so many people. A lot of people will think of themselves first, and not society as a whole. And for any idea there's bound to be someone who doesn't agree with it."

Moulton says "Well, no one has ever proven that there doesn't exist an idea that everyone could agree to."

Moulton says "But it might be hard to find such an idea."

Sear says "So hard that we wouldn't be able to."

Moulton says "But unlike Arrow's Theorem, we have a prayer that it in fact does exist to be discovered."

Sear says "At least with voting people believe that it's fair. I don't know that it's good for people to believe that, but at least it gets things done."

Moulton says "I don't believe voting is fair. I don't believe it because it has been mathematically proven to be unfair."

Moulton says "And I can see examples, like the one I gave you, which illustrates the basic problem."

Sear says "But I don't believe that trying to reach a consensus will work either, because for every idea there's someone who isn't going to agree."

Moulton says "When I was at Stanford, my roomate did his Ph.D on Equity Theory, which is a branch of Social Choice Theory."

Sear nods.

Moulton says "But do you have a *proof* of that hypothesis, Sear?"

Moulton says "That hypothesis has eluded proof."

Sear says "No, but that's what I've seen from experience. I'm not saying it's impossible, just very unlikely to work out so neatly."

Moulton says "In fact, MicroMuse operates by Consensus Decision Making."

Moulton says "And we have reached consensus on many many issues over the past 3 years."

Sear says "We being who?"

Moulton says "But it took a lot of hard work. The community who comprise MicroMuse."

Sear says "OK. So with a lot of work it can be made to work out in a fairly small community like Micro. But what if you're talking about the whole US?"

Moulton says "And sometimes, we were not insightful enough to discover a consensus on some issues."

Moulton says "The cost of failing to reach consensus is civil strife, even civil war."

Moulton says "That's why we had a civil war in the US and a civil rights movement. Who was Rosa Parks, Sear? :)"

Sear says "That's why I don't think it will work. Even if someone does come up with a good consensus, some people aren't going to recognize it as such."

Sear says "Yeah, yeah, I know the story."

Moulton says "And why is Rosa Parks famous?"

Sear says "Because she stood up for her rights."

Moulton says "Her civil rights, which were voted away by a majority."

Moulton says "Actually, she didn't stand up. She stayed sat. :)"

Sear says "It's an expression, Moulton. I thought *I* was the literal one :)"

Moulton says "Hehe."

Moulton says "She stood up for her rights by staying sat in her seat. :)"

Sear says "Yes. Exactly. Because a majority had voted that she had to stand, sitting was standing :)"

Moulton says "We call that 'irony'."

Sear says "Yep"

Moulton says "Most grownups still don't understand that deep idea."

Sear scrolls back up to see what we were talking about before language....

Moulton says "Even my neighbors don't understand it."

Sear says "The one that voting is no good?"

Moulton says "Yes. They deeply (and wrongly) believe that majority voting is perfectly fair."

Sear says "Have you tried to explain it to them?"

Moulton says "I've begun by explaining it to their wives and children."

Moulton says "Wives and children are more willing to learn."

Sear thinks they count as neighbors, too. And the wives count as adults.

Moulton says "Yes, but the voting members are the husbands. I live in a Condominium. The Board of Trustees is mostly the husbands."

Moulton says "There is one woman on the Board."

Sear says "Oh. One out of how many?"

Moulton says "I think it's 7."

Moulton says "And she is the Secretary."

Moulton says "Before that, the only woman was the Treasurer."

Sear says "That's sexist."

Moulton says "The women had the real work to do."

Sear says "did they get to vote on things, too, though?"

Moulton says "And the men sat around and made up the rules for others to follow."

Moulton says "Yes, they had a vote, but no one ever listened to their views."

Moulton says "For example..."

Sear says "Real fair."

Sear listens.

Moulton says "We have a little golf course on the property..."

Moulton says "The men like to play golf..."

Moulton says "So they voted $28,000 worth of annual expenditures to fix up the golf course."

Moulton says "And the rule was that everyone had to pay for that, whether they played any golf or not."

Moulton says "Now we also have some children in our condo..."

Sear says "And they didn't even get anyone else's opinions on it? Other people who lived there?"

Moulton says "But they have no play area and no playground equipment. The men who voted $28,000 a year for their golf course didn't vote anything for recreational facilities for the children."

Sear says "So maybe you should start a petition. take some of the golf money and make a playground area."

Moulton says "Oh, they knew the non-golfers objected, but they had the majority vote, so they ignored the unfairness of it, saying they had the legal right as the majority."

Sear says "I don't think a consensus would have worked in that case."

Moulton says "Now, here comes the big question... How does the minority take from majority?"

Sear says "You could ask for a percent. Like if seventy-five percent wanted the golf, and twenty-five wanted the playground, you could try to get 25 percent of the money."

Moulton says "A consensus might have been some plan to spend money on recreational facilities that served the needs of all, including the children."

Moulton says "I could try, but I don't have the votes. 75% want to spend 100% of the funds on golf, and golf alone. Cuz 75% play golf."

Sear says "But there would have been people who had just not agreed to anything that didn't involve some golf."

Moulton says "And they are voting their personal self-interest."

Sear says "Which is why I'm saying a consensus wouldn't have worked, either."

Moulton says "It seems that recreational dollars should serve the needs of those who are taxed."

Moulton says "The British put a tax on tea. Ever hear of The Boston Tea Party?"

Sear says "Yeah."

Moulton says "The tax didn't benefit the tea drinkers. Only the taxing authority, the British."

Sear thinks a lot of people think "OK, I'm paying some, I should get what I want. It's my money (at least some) so I'm not going to pay for what others want."

Moulton says "The lessons of history are replete... Thoreau, Lincoln freeing the slaves, Boston Tea Party, Rosa Parks."

Sear says "So they revolted."

Sear says "What does replete mean?"

Moulton says "But the lessons of history have not been learned by the men who voted to spend $28,000 on golf for themselves, at the expense of everyone else, including the children, who get no recreational facilities."

Moulton says "Replete means full of relevant examples."

Sear says "Ah. Makes sense."

Moulton says "History is full of similar examples."

Moulton says "So, this is where you come in, Sear..."

Sear says "Me?"

Moulton says "What would you do in this case?"

Moulton says "Would you ask politely?"

Moulton says "Would you refuse to pay the golf tax?"

Moulton says "Would you suffer in silence?"

Sear says "I would go talk to the board with a bunch of people, including children, who wanted the playground."

Moulton says "Would you like to lead the children in that meeting? Act as their spokesperson?"

Sear says "I'd probably be polite but forceful. And say that non-golfers shouldn't have to pay for other's hobbies."

Moulton says "Because they are very young, and without voice."

Sear says "How old?"

Moulton says "They range from 3 to about 11."

Sear thinks that's what you'd be doing.

Moulton says "Or maybe you'd like to write a 'brief' on their behalf."

Moulton says "They might pay attention if it came from an 8th grader."

Moulton says "It might move them. Like the way Rhion moved Felicity."

Sear says "They might also say that since I don't live there what do I have to do with it, and why should they listen to me?"

Moulton says "The men who want to play golf bring in outside lawyers to enforce their right of majority rule."

Moulton says "So why can't the children bring in an outside person who is good at argumentation to argue the merits of their case?"

Sear says "The thing is, though, if they've got the law on their side (which I'm assumiong they do if they brought in lawyers), and they really want their golf, why would they even bother to consider another suggestion? Even if it is convincing, or sounds like a good idea to them."

Moulton says "Because they have a conscience. And only a child can evoke that conscience."

Moulton says "Only child can make them ashamed of their self-centered selfish greed."

Moulton says "Anyway, you can think about it. It might be a fun project."

Sear says "I think if they're that self-centered and greedy, I don't think they care too much about the children."

Sear says "I'll sleep on it :)"

Moulton says "You might be right. The president of the board of trustees told me he objects to having to pay taxes to pay for schools. He'd just as soon not have to pay for public education."

Sear says "Sheesh. What if he had kids?"

Moulton says "He says his children are grown now, and it does him no good anymore to have public schools."

Sear says "Or you could say, OK, you don't want to pay for kids to go to school. You can't change that. We don't want to pay for your golf. You *can* change that."

Sear says "But when his kids were of public school age I'm sure he was glad that everyone had to pay for it."

Moulton says "By the way, suppose we didn't pay for public education. What would happen to children who then grew up to be poorly educated adults?"

Moulton says "You are a good arguer, Sear! :)"

Sear says "Well, not too much would get done by them that would help society, probably. Unless they educated themselves."

Sear tries to be :)

Sear says "Of course, he could say that if he had paid it all then and not any now he'd end up better off."

Moulton says "I think you are a better arguer than the man who is president of the board of trustees."

Sear says "It helps that I'm arguing your side :)"

Sear says "That *does* give me an advantage."

Moulton says "You are a cogent arguer. :)"

Sear says "What's that?"

Moulton says "Plus your arguments are sound. Cogent means well-reasoned and clearly expressed."

Sear Ohs. Thanx :)

Moulton would like to show a transcript of this conversation to the board of trustees.

Sear says "Do you have log on?"

Moulton says "I can do /log and /recall"

Sear says "Which does what?"

Moulton says "It lets me /recall everything and capture it in a /log. It's a feature of TinyFugue."

Moulton says "Are you using TF?"

Sear says "Yeah."

Moulton says "Type this: /recall 10"

Moulton says "If you have /log turned on, the /recall will be captured in the /log."

Sear says "Cool :) I like that it's by how many things are said or done, not number of lines."

Sear says "You can show it to the board if you want."

Moulton says "Thank you. I would like to be able to do that."

Sear likes to help however she can.

Moulton logged the /recall.

Sear figured that's what you were doing.

Sear checks something..

Sear says "Going to include the whole voting thing? And about women on the board?"

Moulton says "Well, no one gets on the board unless they run. Very few women even wish to run."

Moulton says "And the ones who got elected ended up doing a lot of work."

Sear says "It's basically the same here on MUSE. In that many fewer women want to be in positions of power."

Sear wonders if that's something people get from our society, or people are born that way.

Moulton says "That's true. Look how hard it's been to get Felicity and MacDuff and Calliope and Ibis to take more of a leadership role."

Moulton says "But you are taking a leadership role. Which is why I'm very proud of you."

Sear smiles, maybe I'm just not like most.

Moulton says "Sear, you are extraordinary. In case no one ever told you. :)"

Sear says "But I'm more taking the position of teaching people about MUSE, not the usual kind of MUSE leadership having to do with running MUSEs."

Sear says "Thank you :)"

Moulton says "Empowering others to learn and discover is the most important kind of leadership I can think of, Sear."

Sear says "That's why if I'm going to be a leader that's what I want to be."

Moulton says "The leaders whom I respect most are the ones upon whom I can model my own life."

Sear says "And it ends up profiting people more."

Sear says "The educators who you mentioned to Toby and me?"

Moulton says "Yes, Piaget, Dewey, Montessori, Papert, Kay, Resnick, Feurzeig, Hughes."

Moulton says "And my mentors at the Museum of Science, Rosemary Knight and Ken Pauley."

Sear says "I only know of a few of those, but I know basically what they did."

Sear says "Who are they?"

Moulton says "Rosemary Knight created the Discovery Center there."

Moulton says "She and Ken are in the Education Department at the Science Museum. I have enormmous respect for their achievements."

Sear says "She was the one who thought of it? Now *she's* got some good ideas."

Moulton says "She built it. Conceived and designed it, secured funding, and brought it to fruition."

Sear says "What'd Ken do?"

Sear says "All by herself?"

Moulton says "He's been at the Museum since he was a teenager. He's a beloved teacher who presents many programs and demonstrations throughout the museum. I love to go to his demonstrations and performances."

Moulton says "Rosemary was assisted by Terry McIlheny, who began as a volunteer about 10 years ago."

Sear says "Oh, then I've propbably seen him :) I've only been to every demonstration and such they've got about ten times :)"

Sear says "So it's not so new, then"

Moulton says "He is a funny man. He camps it up when he does his presentations. He has a funny kind of nasal twang kinda like Walter Matthau."

Sear says "Camps it up?"

Moulton says "He's not a dry lecturer. He's kind of an actor. Throws a lot of emotion into his presentations."

Moulton says "He's funny just to watch. Even if you don't understand all the science."

Sear says "Ah. Isn't that the kind of people they try to get to do their presentations? If you're not like that, you'll lose your audience."

Moulton says "Yah, its Edutainment."

Sear says "What's he do presentations on?"

Moulton says "Anything and everything. Theater of Electricity, Physical Sciences Stage, Live Animal Shows, Theatrical stuff in the Cahner's Theater."

Moulton says "He did the Explorer's Series last year."

Sear says "I always thought those were all done by different people. Guess not. I suppose if you hang around there enough you could figure out what to do for 'em all"

Sear says "Which one was that?"

Moulton says "Ken does everything there. I admire him deeply."

Sear says "I see why. That would be a fun job, too."

Moulton says "It was a series of program events. I saw his Halloween Show last year."

Sear says "The sleep over thing? Or part of it?"

Moulton says "He can capture an audience with spellbinding skill."

Moulton says "He does shows for Camp-In, too."

Sear says "They stopped doing that, though :( My brother used to love it. So did Zero. (I was too old by the time I heard about it.)"

Moulton says "One neat thing about being a volunteer is that I get to see a lot of his work."

Moulton says "I even like him better than Mr. Wizard on Nickelodeon."

Sear says "Do you work with him much? Ever done a presentation?"

Moulton says "And I like Mr. Wizard an awfully lot. :)"

Sear hasn't seen Mr. Wizard..hmm..didnt I tell you that Friday? :)

Moulton says "I've never done anything with Ken. But I do my 'schtick' in the Discovery Center every Saturday."

Sear says "Which is what? :)"

Moulton says "Challenge visitors with puzzles and curious science toys."

Sear says "Do they get 'em? :)"

Moulton says "And show them how to make stuff, like the Origami."

Moulton says "I try to select puzzles that are of the right difficulty for ppl."

Moulton says "They don't always get them."

Sear says "But if you've just met someone how can you tell what their puzzle abilities are going to be?"

Moulton says "You can tell by their attitude about them."

Moulton says "If they shrink in fear or are eager..."

Sear says "Ah..but not always."

Moulton says "If they express familiarity or intrigue or curiosity."

Moulton says "But not always."

Moulton says "Sometimes I just have to cajole ppl into trying."

Sear says "My cousin, for example...she's not crazy about puzzles, and might look as if she's not into them at first, but if you give her one, even a *very* complicated one that almost no one can manage she'll get it in a few minutes."

Sear says "She catches me by surprise every time :)"

Moulton says "A puzzle is like a quiz, except it's fun."

Sear says "Quizes can be fun, too. As long as it's on an interesting topic."

Moulton says "And you can figure out a puzzle even if you don't already know the answer beforehand."

Sear says "But puzzles are different in that you haven't learned the answer somewhere else, whereas with most quizzes you're supposed to know what to do"

Sear grins, Great Minds Think Alike.

Moulton says "That's why I think puzzles are wonderful. :)"

Sear says "Some can drive you crazy, though :)"

Moulton says "With a puzzle you get to *think* instead of just remember."

Moulton says "They are supposed to drive you *sane* :)"

Sear says "Of course, some puzzles are based on mathematical things that if you know them make the puzzle extremely easy."

Sear says "Well, that's in the long term :) In the short term they make you crazy."

Moulton believes it's more fun to think instead of just remember.

Sear says "Me too."

Moulton says "But working such puzzles is a great way to learn deep mathematics."

Sear says "And learn how to think about things, and solve problems."

Moulton says "Yep. My interest as an educator is to help ppl learn how to think and solve problems. Not to memorize stuff."

Sear says "Although sometimes that can be useful, too. If you want to do a whole bunch of similar things, it's quicker to figure out the first one and remember how you did it."

Moulton says "How many different kinds of Formal Reasoning do you know about?"

Sear says "I don't even know what Formal Reasoning is."

Sear says "Though I might know of some under different names."

Moulton says "Deductive Reasoning, Inductive Reasoning, Probabalistic Reasoning, Bayesian Inference, Symbolic Logic, Combinatory Logic, Model-Based Reasoning."

Moulton says "Here is an example of Deductive Reasoning..."

Sear says "I know about Deductive, and a little about Inductive. the others sound familiar, but I don't remember really what they are."

Moulton says "You know that if you a) put a coin in a coke machine and b) press a selection, then 3) your selected beverage will be dispensed."

Sear nods.

Moulton says "In Inductive Reasoning, you reason backwards from Effect to Probable Cause. If you see Zero walk away from a coke machine with a soda in her hand, you reason backwards to the likelihood that she inserted a coin and made a selection."

Sear says "Which is reasonable, but you can't be sure of it."

Moulton says "One is called Forward Chaining from Cause to Effect. The other is called Backward Chaining from Observed Effect to Probable Cause."

Moulton says "Yes, Inductive reasoning is somewhat probabalistic."

Moulton says "Actually, we call that Inferential Reasoning. Cuz you Infer Probable Cause."

Sear nods, I think I get those two. what are the others?

Moulton says "Diagnostic Reasoning is another."

Sear says "And it is...?"

Moulton says "Now suppose you see someone put in a coin in the coke machine and then get mad and kick it. What do you reason might be the problem?"

Sear says "It didnt' give them a coke."

Moulton says "OK, and why not?"

Sear says "Because it is out of it."

Moulton says "That's one possibility. What else?"

Sear says "It's broken."

Sear says "Or he didn't have enough money."

Moulton says "That's another. What else? Yes."

Moulton says "You diagnose possible failure mechanisms."

Moulton says "Based on your knowledge of what goes on inside the machine."

Sear says "Or he's just venting his anger on the machine because it's the only thing around."

Sear says "So you're just diagnosing the problem? Trying to figure out what's the root of the problem?"

Moulton says "Now you need a Model of how the coke machine works to be able to hypothesize what went wrong."

Sear says "Or a working one that I can take apart :)"

Moulton says "If you have a good accurate model of how it's supposed to work, you can imagine what part of the system might have broken, and how the broken system would behave."

Sear says "And you can test it to see if that is actually the problem."

Moulton says "When I was young, I took stuff apart to see how it worked. And then I put it back together, to be sure. And when things broke, I understood how to fix them."

Moulton says "And as I went along in life, I turned to ever more complex systems."

Sear says "So is that the Model method?"

Sear says "Just taking things apart and seeing how they work?"

Moulton says "From lamps and typewriters to appliances and radios and cars and computers."

Moulton says "I wanted to have a mental model of how complicated things worked."

Sear says "And so now you can fix them all if they are broken?"

Moulton says "Then I could take it apart, fix it, put it back together, or even make new stuff out of it all."

Sear says "Neat :) But what happens now as all the parts gets smaller and smaller and harder to see?"

Moulton says "I can fix a lot of stuff that most ppl can't."

Moulton says "I work at the system level. I work with parts that I can handle."

Moulton says "I can't fix a burned out transistor, but I can replace it with a good one."

Sear says "That's very useful. Most people have to go pay someone to fix their broken appliances."

Moulton says "And thereby save the board that it's on."

Sear says "Ah. So it's basically just going one step deeper?"

Moulton says "So if a computer has a bad part, I can find the bad part and fix or replace it and make the computer work again."

Sear says "Always? :)"

Moulton says "I go as deep as I can. I can sometimes salvage a dead board by changing the bad components."

Moulton says "Not always. Much of the time. Even doctors lose patients sometimes."

Moulton says "But anyone can learn to do that."

Sear says "Yeah :( But of course, if they didn't, we'd all still be around...the world would be jammed."

Moulton says "But school never taught me to do that."

Sear says "And I suppose if you just kept fixing old parts computers would never get faster or anything."

Moulton says "One reason ppl have big families is cuz they expect some kids to die."

Sear says "School doesn't teach very much, I've found."

Sear says "Not too much around here, though. In other countries, yes."

Moulton says "Well, I can't make an old computer faster, but I can use an old computer to help you learn faster. :)"